On the matter of pubs

[moonlite_tryst]

Specifically, ye olde tradional british pubs.

Over the last 4 years I have read many fics and most of them have adhered to canon details in some form or other. But time and time again I'm thrown out of a fic once the characters enter one of the pubs in the wizarding world; pubs which, by their very location in the wizarding world, I expect be traditional (unless refurbishment is mentioned) but find contain unfamiliar elements such as the booth, the counter and the barkeep. *warning, image heavy*



Ladies and gents, may I present the traditional bar:







That's bar people, not counter. To most Brits, a counter is something in a cafe, or even a shop.

Traditional british pubs have - and this is the important bit - open seating: chairs around tables, stools at the bar.








They do not have booths. You may find a booth or two in one of the reproduction pub interiors that now grace most Muggle city centres, such as the Eerie pub chain or Weatherspoons, but finding booths in an unrefurbished traditional pub would be highly unlikely. And if there's one thing you can rely on in the wizarding world, it's tradition.

Finally, for most of us Brits, it's usual to order beer from either a barman or a barmaid, although that doesn't mean that barkeep is incorrect. The term was unfamilair to me until I read fanfic, but I couldn't find any Google entry that defined barkeep as being of either english or american origin.

So please folks, if you intend any witch or wizard to enter ye olde Leakey Cauldron or other unmodernised establishment, leave the booths and counters out.

Comments

[calanthe-fics.livejournal.com]

Darling! Let's call a spade a spade right at the top. It's the Americans, isn't it?

:D

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. And todays fic was one booth too far. ;)

[calanthe-fics.livejournal.com]

Don't tell me. HDWC?

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

I caved and read a rec.

[calanthe-fics.livejournal.com]

*waggles finger*

You've only got yourself to blame, Missy.

:D

[beatnikspinster.livejournal.com]

Sorry.

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

No, not from you. It was on the prophet. On the whole I liked it but the pub scenes made me want to shout out loud.

[symetric.livejournal.com]

Phew! I was looking forward to reading Gibson's fic. That's what Heathen actually recced. :D

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

The issue with pub fittings has been niggling me for some time and today I decided to make a post about it. Do read Gibson's fic and think chair for booth. ;)

[symetric.livejournal.com]

Nice pub pics; I especially like the Queen Victoria head (is it Queen Vic?) in the first. They're also very bright. Most pubs have the lighting kind of all dimmed.

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

They didn't look bright on my Google search.*shrugs* Yes it is Queen Vic.

[symetric.livejournal.com]

You've changed your layout! Yeah, late reaction. As far back as I can remember your journal, you've always had the same one. Looks fantastic btw.

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

A friend made the other layout for my birthday 2 years ago but it had no tags section, so after searching LJ and various comms I finally settled on a layout I could actually read. This is a transition, I think.

LOVELY photos - thanks for clarification

[calmnla.livejournal.com]

Interesting and useful. I had wondered how so many fics have the boys leaning against the bar when, here in the US, the bar is usually crowded with people sitting on stools. I like the pictures of the bar with a rail only - it aids the idea of going in for a quick drink. It also makes it more significant when characters settle in at a table.

A lot of bars here are restaurant/bars because the food puts them in a different licensing category. I forget the benefit - possibly it has to do with zoning preferences for places that serve alcohol as an afterthought (wink wink) rather than as the focus of their business.

Okay - re booth - one of your pics shows built in seats on the wall side of a table. So - what's that? Bench? Seat? Uncomfortable-but-lovely wooden place to sit?

Bartender is the more familiar term in my wealth of experience. Barkeep is something they say on old TV westerns, John Wayne movies, etc., short for barkeeper (much like bartender though I've never heard anyone say "bartend"). I think the guys who wrote and hoped to sell those stories liked the way it sounded when a cowboy/bad guy/hero would call out "BARK-eep!" Sort of like a barking dog with hiccups, yes?

Barman and barmaid make sense in the wizarding world, frozen as it is in 18th-century styles.

Re: LOVELY photos - thanks for clarification

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

I'm very pleased that you liked the pics. Regarding the seat: if you mean the third pic down it's a wooden bench known as a settle. They were popular in homes from the medieval period to the 1st half of the 18th century because they helped shield the draughts and often had an integral storage chest.

BARK-eep *giggles* Yes, it does sound like a barking dog with hiccups. :)

[flamewarrior.livejournal.com]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Now, let's just hope some of the American writers read this... (and may I add a link from my Britpicking page?)

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

Of course you may link it. I tried not to be too snotty but it really pisses me off when authors take so much effort to be canon compliant regarding tradition and then put HP characters in Cheers!

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

LOL!!!
Defends self !!!! I'm an American writer and I have never written the HP-ers in an American style bar. (I think)
we're not all horrible yankees

*hides under Plymouth Rock*

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

I know you're not. *blushes* This post is in response to one too many fics that think trad pubs look like Cheers or some such.

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

I"m just playing around:)

[dracofiend.livejournal.com]

LOLOL!!! the Plymouth Rock?!? Have you seen that thing?? It's like in a pit or something under a ton of scaffolding and construction! :D

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

And there was me scratching my head and thinking I don't remember any rocks at Plymouth, just the naval dockyards. Duh!

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

"such a fine line between clever and... stupid" - Spinal Tap

well, I tried ;P

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

Plymouth Rock
My feable attempt at being pithy;P

[hpstrangelove.livejournal.com]

This is great! I wish that there was an easy place to go to when I had questions about something 'British' like this! (Like - what is the common time for the evening meal at home? I needed that for a fic recently...I could find common foods, but not the time a meal is eaten - so I kind of skipped that detail and worked around it.)

I am such a perfectionist - I try and do as much research as possible when having to write a scene taking place in a location I've never been to (not just Britain).

I will for sure be bookmarking this post for future reference.

What about coffee shops? Are there Starbucks on every corner like there are in every city here in the States? I'm just curious. I never go to Starbucks in my hometown, but when I travel, I always know I can find coffee there (which I simply cannot live without).

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

You can always mail me with any questions.

what is the common time for the evening meal at home

Anywhere between 5 and 7 pm depending on the household and whether your characters work. 5pm would be tea time and 7pm would be called dinner.

Re Starbucks, yes they are now common in major cities and tourist hot spots. I can think of 4 in Nottingham city centre along with numerous Costa Coffee's and Cafe Nero's. What you won't find easily any more is a proper tea shop.

[elsa12790.livejournal.com]

Just butting in with a further question about tea time: is it just a difference in nomenclature, then, based on the time it's eaten, or would dinner and tea time have different foods? I know tea time can be much more substantial than many Americans think (with our visions of little sugary cakes on fine china) but can it actually be the main evening meal? I think I sort of imagined that a late afternoon tea time, while not merely a snack, would be followed by a later (7:30-8:30) dinner.
Thank you, and thanks as well for the pub info.

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

is it just a difference in nomenclature

Answering from an english perspective: no, it's more than that. It also comes down to class and you know how we english are still hide bound by our class system. So, here goes:

Prior to the introduction of tea into Britain, the English had two main meals, breakfast and dinner. Breakfast was ale, bread, and beef. Ugh!

During the middle of the eighteenth century, dinner for the upper and middle classes had shifted from noontime to an evening meal that was served at a fashionable late hour. Dinner was a long, massive meal at the end of the day. Because of this gap from lunch time to the late evening meal, tea time became the fashionable way to fill the empty tummy. You then had a 4 meal day: breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner.

Now, to those of us of working class origins we have 3 meals a day: breakfast, dinner time (middle of the day) and tea time, which is usually after 4:30pm and will have a main course and some times a dessert. If I'm going out for a meal after 7 pm, I will call it dinner. Very late snacks are called supper by all. Does that help?

[glorafin.livejournal.com]

You might underestimate how confusing pubs can be for non-British people. To give you an example, I was in London last week with my cousin and her young daughter and we went for a fish&chips in a pub near Gloucester Road.

I knew you had to order at the bar and not to wait for a waiter to take your order, so I did go to the bar and order. The barmaid then told me our meals and drinks would be brought to our table. So far so good. Sadly, only two drinks arrived, then the meals. When a few minutes later I asked for my drink, the waiter rolled eyes a bit, probably thinking 'Damn those foreigners who can't do things the usual way', then after a few minutes he brought me my glass of cider, asking me to pay for it at once. Then when I told him it was already paid for as I had ordered it at the bar 25 minutes ago, he called his boss, then more conversation followed, made difficult by the deafening noise of the crowd. Finally, I got my drink long after I had finished eating. During most of that incident, I couldn't help thinking I was probably doing things the wrong way, that some implicit pub law had somehow escaped me. So I won't blame Americans for putting booths where there shouldn't be any. :)

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

Believe me, ordering food in a pub can be confusing for us Brits because different outlets can have different methods. Some of the chains such as Harvester will allow you to leave a tab open in case you wnt dessert or more drinks, others will require payment after you've eaten. Some have waiter staff, others don't and use table numbers.

Regarding the booths, if an author takes time to set up the wizarding world in their fic as JKR sees it, then why not do a Google image search for traditional pub interiors? *crosses fingers and hopes that Warner Bros didn't have a booth in the Leaky Cauldron*

[delorispea.livejournal.com]

LOL. I only just noticed this. I feel so un-British/Irish right now..

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

Oh dear. Twas not my intention. Head down to your nearest pub and enjoy a glass or 2 of your favourite tipple.

[dracofiend.livejournal.com]

Ooh, thanks for the pictures and the explanations! I have to admit I'm now furiously scanning my brain to see if I've written a booth into any fic in the past--I know I've done the bartender thing but I tried to go back and fix that! :D See, this is why I wish I grew up in the UK--then I'd know all about these things. PLUS I'd be familiar with the British school system, which is fairly beyond my grasp (no school graduations was like, a total revelation to me!). ♥

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

no school graduations was like, a total revelation to me!

It's all so low key here until you leave uni, although there is now a growth in proms when kids finish at 16.

Do you still need school info?

[dracofiend.livejournal.com]

:D Thanks for asking! I don't have a specific school-related question but am extremely interested in hearing your thoughts on common erroneous assumptions in fanfic--if you've posted about it before let me know! ♥

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

Assumptions such as scones for breakfast, coffee all the time, trainers in the Marauders period, that kind of thing?

[cassie-black12.livejournal.com]

I'm so pleased you mentioned this. It's only a little thing, but it really niggles me when I read it. My real pet hate is stories that constantly have the boys eating scones for breakfast - what's that all about?!?!

I love really traditional pubs, like the one in the pictures - though there seems to be less and less of them around nowadays - what with all the chain pubs. Love Wetherspoons prices, not so keen on the interiors!!

Was in the oldest pub in britain at the weekend - definitely no barkeeps there!

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

I've even seen one fic where mashed potatoes were served at breakfast. I mean 0.0 what was the author thinking?

I know the Trip to Jerusalem in Nottingham is the oldest pub in England, but not sure if that also applies to the UK, so which city were you?

[cassie-black12.livejournal.com]

I was in Nottingham.

I don't live that far away and my friends took me there for the weekend to celebrate my birthday - it's far cheaper to stop overnight than it is to get taxi's.

Went in the Trip to Jerusalem, just to say we had, and even had a trip on the big wheel in slab square!! Didn't do much for my vertigo though!!

Just thought of another one - what's a comforter?? I'm sure I have a duvet on my bed!

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

had a trip on the big wheel in slab square

Not so much slab square as chinese granite square these days. That wheel made me feel quite sick last year. It was a really blustery day and I was clinging onto my daughter for dear life.

A comforter is specifically a quilted bedcover whereas a duvet is a feathered (or other filling) plain quilt that goes inside a cover. I've always called comforters quilted bed spreads.

[ms-sdak.livejournal.com]

I love those pictures! It makes me want to go over there and join everyone. I know from hearing about it, the atmosphere always feels like a bunch of friends - even though know they're strangers. Germany was like that as well.

Here in the United States...? *blows raspberry* Fat chance. Unless you live in a small town, the bars are what is known as a "meat market".

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

This pub is in my city and it's thought to be the oldest pub in Britain. Part of it is built into the lump of rock Nottingham castle sits on.

http://www.triptojerusalem.com/

[ms-sdak.livejournal.com]

Wow! I'm going to show my sister. I remember she told me that when she was stationed in England, she went to Nottingham Castle. She might have stopped there.

[sugareey.livejournal.com]

Haven't seen this until now, but that's good to know. I also love these pictures.

I suppose this will be what I should expect when I go to Ireland in May then? Exciting. =)

Thanks for sharing!

[moonlite-tryst.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the delay. Yes you'll see similar pubs in Ireland. Which part are you going to?